Prof. Michał Kleiber, minister of science and chairman of the State Committee for Scientific Research (KBN), talks to Maria Weber

Polish scientists have participated in European Union research work for several years. To what extent is Polish science integrated with that of EU countries?
The integration process in this area is faster than in most other areas of life in Poland. Five years ago Poland obtained the rights, including those to funding, to participate in European Commission framework programs. So Polish scientists gained a chance to test whether their skills met European standards, whether they would get funds for their projects. Each country makes a contribution to the joint EU coffers for scientific research. Thanks to competitions for research projects, the winners have a chance to recoup at least part of the contributed money. So the cost-to-effect ratio is one of the criteria.

Is this ratio favorable to Poland?
The first two years of our participation in the 5th Framework Program were disappointing. We had the impression that the decision on our participation in the 5th FP was premature in relation to the level of preparation on the part of the Polish scientific community. It even seemed to some researchers that it would be better to withdraw. Fortunately, it was decided otherwise. First, we tried to find a way to select the best research centers and persuade them to participate in competitions. Second, we pointed out that assistance from administrative bodies was needed in formulating the applications. These frequently consist of some 30 to 50 pages containing descriptions of scientific studies in accordance with rules that had not been binding in Poland until then. The application should also indicate project milestones to facilitate the settling of accounts. For instance, if the project is to span three years, the plan can be required to be accounted for after each year. And you cannot easily justify failure to complete a certain stage of the project. It takes a lot of discipline and skill in handling crisis situations to prepare for such research projects and to envisage their intermediate stages. In Poland, problems with implementation of research projects often used to be ascribed to the fact that the results of research are difficult to foresee. Meanwhile, the logic of research conducted in the European Union is quite different. This is why we embarked upon a comprehensive information campaign. We used to run itinerary lectures, helping to write applications for participation in European competitions and inform about participation criteria; one of them is collaboration with other European scientific centers. This is important because a single center cannot apply for funding. EU funds are granted only to international consortia so the point is to become a member of one. The campaign proved a success. After four years we calculated that we had contributed some 97 million euros to the EU budget while Polish researchers "recovered" an estimated 140 million euros. This was quite a success. The cost-to-effect ratio was favorable to us and Polish researchers have established valuable contacts. But it is not just financial success that counts. Even more important is that a certain model of research has been adopted. The European program budget amounts to 17.5 billion euros, which accounts for some 5 percent of the science budget of EU countries. So European projects account for merely a fraction of overall research carried out in Europe, but from Poland's point of view this is quite an important fraction. We learned to establish strong groups with industrial partners and to manage projects properly.

So the experience of Polish scientists is a signal of what direction the country should take in the future?
Exactly. Polish scientists were the first to pave the way in the integrated Europe for other areas of the economy. The pattern tested by Polish science will be followed. Any other branch will experience the same. This won't be easy; it will mean learning more about cooperation, mobilization and mutual assistance. After some time, we will manage excellently. I believe, currently, Polish scientists, boasting much more experience, have entered the competition of the 6th Framework Program. This time they will have a surprise as the European Commission has slightly changed the rules on participation. Unluckily, the changes are hardly favorable to Poland. So far, the grants have been relatively low, which means that more consortia had a chance to get them. Now the European Commission has come to the conclusion that more resources should be allocated to large international groups working on more comprehensive projects with a real application potential.

How much will the European Commission earmark for large integrated projects?
So far the average grant amounted to an estimated 1.5 million euros, with typically five to ten partners within a consortium. This meant that each would receive between 150,000 and 300,000 euros. Now, it is much more - the overall funding for an integrated project may amount to 20 million euros or more, while consortia will consist of greater number of participants. It is difficult to find and join one of such large consortia. So far, Polish scientific institutions have rarely participated in consortia of top-level European research and industrial centers. We have not been admitted to consortia including world industrial leaders like Nokia or Daimler-Chrysler. Now we have to look for strong partners who will enable us to join these consortia. This is a great chance to win big money for research. Alas, many of these large groups form on the basis of long-standing contacts. In a natural way they continue collaboration within European programs. There has been a chance to use the experience of large Western companies in this area; this was on the occasion of privatization. In purchasing Polish factories, companies used to conclude agreements on welfare packages with local trade unions. These would mention investment and employment but never research, although many of the works taken over had their own research centers which investors would close down upon privatization. In this way we lost a chance to force them to use at least part of the Polish scientific potential. Hungarians used this opportunity and won. Industrial research is an extremely important part of the current programs and it cannot possibly be carried out without the participation of companies.

On the other hand, centers of excellence have emerged in Poland as a result of Poland's participation in European studies.
We attempted for many years to establish them. We wanted to show the science pattern functioning in Europe. We persuaded the European Commission to select the best units. The first competition for an excellence center was held three years ago. Nine centers were selected from among many candidates: seven organized within the Polish Academy of Sciences and two university departments.

Later, we suggested that the campaign be extended. In another competition many more centers gained center of excellence status. Such a concentration of research efforts in selected centers is indispensable today. You also have to take a selective look at the subject of research. We simply cannot afford to finance research in every area.

What position does Poland occupy among candidate countries in terms of participation in framework programs?
Now we have the largest number of successful projects in all areas of science in absolute numbers. But in per capita terms we are behind Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Hungary and Estonia. But it seems to me that such comparisons are pointless because the specific character of individual countries, their different size and level of adjustment to currently announced competitions renders an impartial comparison impossible.

Will we have any influence on the subject of research once we join the European Union?
With the 5th Framework Program we could not submit any suggestions of our own. With the 6th Program we could propose research subjects and we have displayed some activity in this respect. Considering all the member and candidate countries, we placed 6th in terms of "expressions of interest" submitted. But joining the EU in itself will be helpful since, despite full partnership in science, there are unwritten differences regarding the credibility of member and candidate countries.