Lech Wałęsa, former president of Poland and the first chairman of the Solidarity Independent Self-Governing Trade Union (NSZZ), talks to Marcin Mierzejewski.

This is a hot time for the Polish political community-upcoming parliamentary elections followed by presidential elections. What, in your opinion, does Polish democracy lack 16 years after the Round Table?

What Poland lacks first and foremost is money and economic structures. The political transformations that occurred after 1989 broke our economic connections-East Germany and the Soviet Union were no more and "cooperation and collaboration," as it was called at the time, came to an end. Naturally, we turned to the West, since there was nothing to talk about with the East; there was only mess and disorganization. Then it turned out we were not too welcome in the West, either. I proposed a new-generation "Marshall Plan," but that never took off. It seems, then, that not much depends on our politicians. They cannot boast any programs and wisdom. When there is no cake to be divided in the economy, the struggle morphs into personal conflicts, chaos rules at the highest authority levels and politicians seek substitute topics.

At the same time, those who are involved in politics in Poland realize those personal rather than program conflicts will not necessarily win them reelection. As a result, they desperately seek safe havens, they start mulling over how to survive if they fail to land themselves another term. This leads to various bad situations and deals. While totally wrong, you could say that is the normal conduct in abnormal conditions. When life forces people to come up with shady practices, political programs get pushed aside.

Still, I am convinced that as collaboration with the European Union develops and the situation stabilizes, some issues will naturally become orderly and clear and populists and demagogues will drop out of Polish politics. But it will probably take another two consecutive elections that will yield more results like those to date, that is, "from one extreme to another."

One of your sons, Jarosław, is planning to run as a candidate for Sejm deputy on the Civic Platform (PO) ticket in Gdańsk. Knowing the ins and outs of politics, aren't you concerned about your son?

My parents discouraged me from politics; they literally turned me against the occupation and yet I became a politician. So I do not want to make the same mistake. I am neither encouraging my son nor hindering him; it is his own business. Anyway, if I were to live my life again, I would steer clear of politics. You could say I became a politician somewhat unintentionally, as a man raised on the simple principles of plain honesty. That did not suit various political actions and slogans, but at the same time my ambition would not let me leave certain things. It told me to proceed into the mire. It made me who I became, but it was not really my deliberate choice, rather a question of a higher necessity.

Plenty of people in Poland blame you for lending political support in the 1990s to the "left leg," as you called the postcommunist left wing, or more recently, for inviting politicians of the former Polish United Workers' Party (PZPR) to your name-day party. Do you think it is time to even out old divisions?

No, no, this is not how it is. I can tell you exactly how it was with that "left leg." That was a point at which we, as Solidarity, had already come to power, but the situation was complicated. When they saw the situation really was worse than they had expected, the OPZZ [All-Poland Trade Union Alliance, a trade union syndicate previously subordinate to the PZPR-ed.] and the postcommunists were ready for a big brawl. So, I went to the OPZZ for a meeting, a tough one. I left very tired and that was when I bumped into a TV crew. They were very well prepared; they asked me instantly why the meeting was held and whether that meant my support for the left wing. As far as I can remember, I said something to the effect that I wanted to live in a Poland where all Poles could work for the good of their homeland, be themselves and stan,d by their beliefs. I said it applied to the left wing as well. The next thing I heard on the TV was "Lech Wałęsa is a supporter of the 'left leg!'" I could not defend myself anymore.

I have similar answers to other accusations of this kind. They are all rubbish. I was a mortal enemy of that system from the beginning to the end. I proved it by leading a struggle that we won.

The same applies to my reunion with Aleksander Kwaśniewski. I did not want the reunion and would have probably never done it had I been not pressed by Church officials, especially the archbishop in Gdańsk. There was this one most important argument: the pope would have wished it. When John Paul II died, I could no longer refuse. I had to shake hands with Kwaśniewski [it took place at the pope's funeral in the Vatican-ed.]. I have by no means changed my mind about the past and the wasted decade of Kwaśniewski's presidency. However, when it comes to the future, if an idea develops that can benefit Poland, I agree, we can collaborate.

As for the recent name-day you mentioned, let me put it this way: I can see how people work together on those basic levels-communes, counties, provinces even. No matter if they are red, green or some other color. But they do so in hiding, so to speak, and then deny it. I thus decided to show them something, to tell them: you can follow my example because Lech Wałęsa has done it; he cooperates, as Poland should. That is what it was all about, not fraternizing. When I invite someone to a party it does not mean I am going to be the godfather of his children, or vice versa! That is not the point. Not to mention the charges concerning my alleged spying activities, I refuse to even comment on that.

But people who were involved in Solidarity get the impression that these days you live better with your former adversaries than your "brothers in arms" of August...

My answer is: what is your idea of reconstructing capitalism? Through competition! Under communism, the economy was based on huge conglomerates carrying out a plan. That system killed activity in people. Everyone expected things to be given to them. It is different in capitalism. When you are facing poverty, you have to start doing something. You have to cope somehow. Politics is similar: these days every candidate must look different, have something different to say-this is also competition.

I felt like crying when, as the president, I had to hit the interests of workers. But what else could I do? I had no choice at that point, since I realized that my first task was to smash the old structure, the economic monopoly. I foresaw there was no other way to transform it all into democracy, pluralism and capitalism. At a certain stage, solidarity ends, leaving room for interest groups-capitalists, trade unions, political parties-which have to obtain a pound of flesh wisely.

Back to the elections, it would be tragic if in the second round we had to choose between Cimoszewicz and Kaczyński. I have always said the Kaczyński brothers were fighters. They did excellently during the struggle against communism, but they are useless when it comes to building anything. But I would never vote for Cimoszewicz considering his past and because it would not serve Poland at this point in time. Then I would have no other choice but to vote for Kaczyński. But I still have not ruled out my participation in the elections, to show to the nation that Wałęsa is ready to join in the competition and has his own ideas for Poland.

How can the world of today benefit from the legacy of Solidarity?

The world today needs a different Solidarity, no longer a trade union, but something new. Neither capitalists nor politicians want to cooperate with a union. Unions have specific goals and scope of activities. The ideals of solidarity are something that not only Poland needs, but also the EU and the world, which has entered a new era of development-an era of globalization when old divisions are vanishing. It was Polish Solidarity and its victory that put an end to the old era when what mattered were borders and rival blocs. Today, the world needs new solutions, and I offer such solutions when I meet with people and politicians around the world. However, from this point of view the past somehow supports us when we are building the present, as the ideals of solidarity are still associated with the trade union, the old days. Therefore after the 25th anniversary celebrations, I am going to leave Solidarity in order to begin a new phase of my activities, independent of the union.

Visit THE POLISH VOICE and read another interview with Lech Wałęsa at:
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